A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
All right. Let's turn now to Evelyn Farkas. She's a former deputy assistant secretary of defense for Russia, Ukraine and Eurasia under President Obama, now executive director of the McCain Institute at Arizona State University.
Evelyn, we just heard about - especially at the end there - how President Zelenskyy wore a different outfit. I got to admit, that's the first thing I noticed when he got out of the car at the White House, that he was wearing kind of a more formal jacket and trousers as opposed to his military look. And I think it seemed like he turned on the charm and maybe more for the American people as much as it was for Trump and his Cabinet in the Oval Office. What stood out to you for yesterday's meeting?
EVELYN FARKAS: I think that's right, A. He came there ready to, you know, flatter our president, express appreciation. Of course, I mean, everyone's grateful that President Trump wants to stop the fighting. So, you know, he was expressing that through his attire, through his, you know, repeated thank yous. And he was much more relaxed as well, you know, joking around, in fact, about the attire with the reporter who had criticized him before.
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah. Now, as far as actual progress towards something like a ceasefire or a peace deal, do you think that was accomplished yesterday?
FARKAS: I am very afraid that the answer to that might be no. It is clear that substantive conversations are occurring. You know, the idea of a security guarantee is being discussed. But what I'm afraid of is that it is being watered down. And the crux of any deal, regardless of where you draw the lines on territory - and we should remind your listeners that this was a war of aggression that Russia, you know, launched against Ukraine starting in 2014, but then brutally in 2022 attacking Ukraine's civilians, raping, murdering, stealing children. I mean, it is a violation of human rights that we have not seen, you know, at this scale since World War II. It's violating, of course, the U.N. conventions, Geneva Conventions, U.N. Charter, et cetera. So to give Russia anything is, of course, morally offensive. But, you know, for the price of peace and durable peace, the Ukrainians, I think, would be willing to do it, and that means their government and their people. But the durable peace depends on a security guarantee, A, and this is where I worry about how the various parties define that.
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah, because, I mean, it seems - and maybe I'm missing something, but it seems simple, right? A security guarantee would mean protection against more Russian aggression. If that's not what it boils down to, then I don't understand what it is.
FARKAS: Right. I mean, then it means war for the Ukrainians because Vladimir Putin has not shown any sign - not in the things that he's said publicly, not in what his media's saying, not in what President Trump's reported out of their meetings, you know, not in the media leaks. He's not shown any inkling that he's changed his objective, which is to completely control Ukraine and wipe it as an independent political entity off the map. He wants to absorb it into the Russian Federation, and that is unacceptable under international law. It's unacceptable from the standpoint of European security. It's unacceptable in terms of what it shows the Chinese and others they can get away with. I mean, this - the stakes here are global.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, President Trump has also been talking about what he refers to as, quote, "land swaps." I'm thinking of that term, Evelyn, and that means that two parties exchange something.
FARKAS: Right.
MARTÍNEZ: But that doesn't seem like - what would Russia be exchanging in this scenario?
FARKAS: Yeah, I mean, that might've worked when the Ukrainians still controlled Kursk, which is a region within Russia that they actually took - as they said, as President Zelenskyy himself said - as a bargaining chip. Well, now there's nothing for the Russians to give in return, and so it doesn't seem like a swap. It seems like a forfeiture on the part of the Ukrainians if you talk about swapping.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, we might be accused right now, Evelyn, of having a very pessimistic conversation when it comes to Ukraine's near and long-term future. But do you see any hope based on the last few days?
FARKAS: Yes. I mean, first of all, our president is deeply engaged. That is important because the United States has all the cards. What I would like to see is that the United States put pressure back on Putin. I don't think that Putin is going to meet with Zelenskyy separately. President Putin does not see President Zelenskyy as an equal. So the idea of this bilateral meeting, I think, is highly unrealistic. Maybe if President Trump were to agree to attend, that would be a different story. The other question, of course, is President Zelenskyy's physical security because President Putin's people, his security forces, have tried to assassinate President Zelenskyy multiple times. So the bilateral meeting I don't think is possible, but we have a lot of cards.
President Trump could put pressure on the Kremlin by, you know, slapping on sanctions, by saying, if you don't do this, I will do that, or if you don't do this, I will - if you do this, I will lift sanctions. So I'm going to put sanctions on you now, Vladimir. You now have to come to the table and give us something, which is an agreement that, for example, Ukraine can enter NATO or an agreement that there's a real Article 5 with U.S. and European troops stationed as trip wires in Ukraine agreement - something like that. But I think the pressure has to be put on the Kremlin.
MARTÍNEZ: OK.
FARKAS: And then an incentive has to be given. OK, we'll take the pressure off if there's a peace deal.
MARTÍNEZ: Evelyn Farkas is a former defense official and executive director of the McCain Institute at Arizona State University. Thank you, Evelyn.
FARKAS: Thank you, A. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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