MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
In a few minutes, we'll speak with Senator Maria Cantwell, a Democrat from Washington state who had sharp words for Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. about his policy on vaccines at a hearing yesterday. We'll ask her to say more about what concerns her.
A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
First, though, we'll find out more about that hearing, which saw Kennedy clash repeatedly with senators.
MARTIN: During his nomination for the post earlier this year, Kennedy assured lawmakers he would not prevent people who want vaccines from getting them, despite having built his reputation and his fortune as an anti-vaccine activist. Since he got the job, many of those senators have come to believe he's taken actions that, combined, have broken that promise.
MARTÍNEZ: NPR's Selena Simmons-Duffin watched the hearing yesterday and is here to explain. So that was some must-see TV, Selena. What questions did...
SELENA SIMMONS-DUFFIN, BYLINE: Yeah.
MARTÍNEZ: ...The senators have for Kennedy about vaccines?
SIMMONS-DUFFIN: Well, you know, fall is coming. Winter is coming, right? And for a lot of people, that means the flu shot and the COVID-19 booster to protect against the respiratory viruses that start getting passed around. So this year, the Food and Drug Administration approved the COVID booster, with a catch. It is not approved for everybody, just people with certain conditions and people over 65. And there's already a huge amount of confusion about what that means in real life, you know, for doctors, patients, insurance companies. But yesterday, in the hearing, Secretary Kennedy insisted that anybody who wants the shot can get it, and he got really angry when he was pressed about it. Here's one example. It was an exchange with Senator Maggie Hassan, Democrat of New Hampshire, who was asking about the COVID-19 booster for kids.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
MAGGIE HASSAN: Now parents who decide that they do want their children to have a COVID vaccine can't...
ROBERT F KENNEDY JR: You're just making stuff up, Senator.
HASSAN: I'm not making stuff up.
KENNEDY: You're just making stuff up.
HASSAN: You know, sometimes when you make an accusation, it's kind of a confession, Mr. Kennedy.
MARTÍNEZ: Wow. All right. So who's right? Senator Hassan or Secretary Kennedy?
SIMMONS-DUFFIN: Hassan is right that parents of kids without certain conditions are probably going to face barriers getting the booster shot this year. This approval only for certain groups means that just wanting the vaccine - you know, making the personal choice to get one - might not be enough this year. And, you know, a big question mark is what the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices is going to do. You'll remember, this is the group that Kennedy said he wouldn't touch, and then he fired all 17 members and replaced them with his picks, many of whom have a history, like him, of anti-vaccine activism.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, all this isn't just only about COVID-19 vaccines.
SIMMONS-DUFFIN: Yeah, that's right. The panel, who's meeting later this month, is also set to consider routine childhood vaccines, like the one for measles, mumps and rubella and hepatitis B. Senator Michael Bennet, Democrat of Colorado, asked Kennedy if that meant schools and parents in his state should be prepared for more measles outbreaks.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
KENNEDY: I do not anticipate a change in the MMR vaccine. I - you know, ACIP is an independent panel. So...
MICHAEL BENNET: Well, it's a panel you just put those folks on. Far from what you said, they're people with ideas that are completely outside the mainstream.
KENNEDY: You mean out of the pharmaceutical paradigm?
BENNET: Let me just...
SIMMONS-DUFFIN: Yeah, that was one of several times in the hearing that Kennedy equated scientific consensus that vaccines are safe and effective and save lives with researchers somehow being compromised by drug companies. There was a memorable moment when Senator Sanders, independent of Vermont, picked up on that.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
BERNIE SANDERS: Everybody is corrupt but you? Is that what we're looking at? I don't think so. And I think the issue now...
KENNEDY: I don't even know what you're talking about.
SANDERS: Well, I think you do know what I'm talking about.
KENNEDY: I don't know what you're...
SIMMONS-DUFFIN: When pressed by Sanders, Kennedy said, yes, he does think mainstream medical organizations like the American Academy of Pediatrics can't be trusted because they're, quote, "gravely conflicted" and claiming their top contributors are vaccine-makers.
MARTÍNEZ: That's NPR's Selena Simmons-Duffin. Thanks a lot.
SIMMONS-DUFFIN: You're welcome. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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